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Author Topic: The misguided way of Liberalism and how it could lead to the end of the USA  (Read 3380 times)
ragman
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« on: December 26, 2011, 02:35:15 PM »

Yesterday at a Christmas get to getter I met an interesting author who is down here working on his second book about politics.  We had quite a conversation about the two party system and why it will be almost impossible for a third party to win the Presidency.  He got me to thinking about where we are today and why things just don't seem to be working the way they use to. I have no idea if he is a Liberal or a Conservative.  We agreed on some points and differed on others but he did get me to thinking. 

In this topic I would like to talk about the adverse way in which Liberal policies are affecting the USA and its' standing in the world.  I do not believe that Liberals wake up every morning and plot how to sink the USA.  They wake up and feel that they are trying to make the USA better.  The problem is that they fail to study certain traits of mankind.  They fail to study previous attempts in Liberalism in other civilizations that ended badly.  In addition they fail to understand how our founding fathers set up America and why we have been the success that we have for over 200 years. 

As a conservative I feel strongly that we are at a tipping point of no return.  I also feel that we where not brought to this point by the Democratic Party alone.  The Republican Party has to share the blame.  The past is the past; we must get past that and turn this around.  Equal opportunity, no problem.  Punishing success is a big problem.  Personal responsibility must come back to America.  There has to be consequences for not doing the right thing. 

The right thing is children being brought up in a family setting and grave consequences if not.  The right thing is getting up and going to work every day not collecting SSI, unemployment or whatever because it is easier.  The right thing is cost benefit to government regulation.  The right thing is less government interference in our everyday life.  Why do we have to go through our lives looking over our shoulder because government is so complex that it is
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Jim
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ragman
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2011, 02:37:07 PM »

More on the continuing class warfare.   Wink  Let's not do something to help the American people, let's make up an issue to get us elected.   Huh  Let's enslave the American people by trying to use the majority to attack the minority and to get them to it we will offer to give the majority more and more and more.  Isn't this what happened to the early Greek Cities and caused their demise? 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2011/12/25/sen-harry-reids-unicorns-fact-checking-a-whopper/2/
Quote
Sen. Harry Reid's Unicorns: Fact Checking A Whopper

Tax policy should be serious business carried out by serious politicians using real facts and figures. This is why we have the Library of Congress and the Congressional Budget Office, among other expert institutions.

How can we take Congress seriously when the Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid, makes patently inaccurate, outrageous and bizarre claims on an important tax-policy issue without any heads being turned? I guess this is what we have come to expect of Congress. No wonder citizens with favorable opinions of Congress are as rare as unicorns, to borrow a phrase.

Harry Reid’s statement on December 6 on his proposed 1.9 percent surtax on million-dollar incomes has kicked up some dust. Here is his statement:
“Millionaire job creators are like unicorns. They’re impossible to find, and they don’t exist… Only a tiny fraction of people making more than a million dollars, probably less than 1 percent, are small business owners. And only a tiny fraction of that tiny fraction are traditional job creators…Most of these businesses are hedge fund managers or wealthy lawyers. They don’t do much hiring and they don’t need tax breaks.”

Taking their cue, National Public Radio launched a search for one millionaire job creator. They triumphantly announced:
“NPR requested help from numerous Republican congressional offices, including House and Senate leadership. They were unable to produce a single millionaire job creator for us to interview.”

Were it not for Google, I would have accepted Harry Reid’s unicorn story and NPR’s confirmation. Unlike Harry Reid’s office, I went to the IRS’s Table 1.4 “Sources of income, adjustments, and tax size of adjusted gross income, 2009” to check things out. (I summarize my sources in a separate blog posting). Here is what I found:

There are 236,883 tax filers with incomes of a million dollars or more. By Harry Reid’s count, only one percent, or 2,361 of them, are business owners, and a tiny fraction of them create jobs. I do not know what Harry means when he says “a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction.” If we let 5 percent represent Harry’s “tiny fraction,” we are left with 118 businesses owners who earn a million or more and create jobs. Yes, they are only slightly less rare than unicorns, if Harry is to be believed.

This leaves 236,765 million-dollar-plus tax payers, most of whom are “hedge fund managers and wealthy lawyers” who “don’t create jobs and don’t need tax breaks.”

My Google search for Harry Reid’s quarter million hedge fund managers and wealthy lawyers came up empty handed. I could identify at most sixteen thousand “wealthy lawyers and hedge fund managers,” not Harry Reid’s quarter million.
Well, Harry Reid’s numbers leave much to be desired, but maybe he is right that millionaire business owners do not create jobs.
What does the IRS have to say about this? Millionaire tax filers earn a total taxable income of $623 billion, on which they pay the highest average rate (30 percent) of any tax bracket. (Either Warren Buffet’s secretary has an incompetent tax accountant or Buffet has some pretty juicy tax breaks. I think the latter is more likely). A 1.9 percent tax surcharge on million-dollar-earners would yield $11 billion, assuming those shifty millionaires take no evasive action to avoid the tax.

Millionaire tax filers earn $221 billion – almost a quarter of a trillion — from business and professions, partnerships, and S-corporations. This is puzzling: If Harry Reid’s figure is correct (2,361 millionaire businesses), then the average millionaire-owned business earns almost a hundred million dollars, and all, except 118 of them, do this without hiring anyone. These super heroes do their own typing, selling, drafting. public relations, building, and manufacturing. They do not need employees. Remarkable!

To summarize:

Millionaire tax filers earn almost a quarter trillion dollars from their businesses. They must hire hundreds of thousands of employees to do so.

The Way The World - And Free-Market Economics - Works Peter Ferrara Contributor

There are a trivial number of millionaire hedge-fund managers and wealthy lawyers (who, according to Harry, do not hire anyone and don’t need tax breaks). The millionaire tax surcharge is not aimed at them, but at the tens of thousands of millionaire business owners.

A 1.9 percent surcharge on millionaires would raise at most eleven billion dollars. By today’s standards, this is chump change, within the federal budget’s rounding error.

The millionaire’s tax is not about balancing the budget. It is about gaining political advantage through the use of envy and greed (two of the seven deadly sins).

Why would Harry Reid tell such whoppers, which are so easily disproved?

Ryan Streeter has hit the nail on the head. He writes that even bearded Occupy Wall Street misfits understand the difference between “earned” and “unearned” success. Those who earn success by creating value honestly are the true heroes in our economy. They should be lauded rather than targeted. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are heroes. Bernie Madoff and, now it seems, John Corzine are not, and everyone, irrespective of their political leanings, understands this.

Reid, in his clumsy way, is trying to portray Republicans as the party of dishonest millionaires, who have not earned their wealth, have not created jobs, detract rather than create value, and refuse to pay their fair share. Such class warfare will be the anchor of the Democrat election playbook.
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Jim
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clover
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2011, 06:12:13 PM »

 The Republicans says cutting taxes, curbing federal spending and gutting corporate tax breaks are the path to prosperity; the Democrat argues government has a more active role to play in putting Americans to work rebuilding bridges and roads, and providing capital for fledgling small businesses – even if it means hiking taxes on the wealthiest in society.  That is the crux of the base of both parties ragman.  You call any deviation from your radical thought process liberalism.....I call it democracy. Wink  Let's face it...you're in the minority and probably always will be.  This is a modern world with modern problems......and Republicans always seem to be looking backwards instead of forwards.....which invariably puts them out of the touch with the all important 51% minimum coalition necessary to win an election.

Your party relishes in punishing the poor and the disadvantaged.....while handing the keys to the kingdom to the richest in society......you must know the majority of Americans see that and will respond on Nov, 2012....get ready to be let down Grin Grin

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/27/obama-approval-rating-gallup_n_1171484.html?ref=politics

http://www.gallup.com/poll/151790/Barack-Obama-Hillary-Clinton-Again-Top-Admired-List.aspx
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 09:09:42 PM by clover » Logged

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ragman
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2011, 09:53:01 PM »

Mike, you see that is the flaw in your thought process.  The United States of America is not a Democracy, it is a Republic.  Nowhere in the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights is the word Democracy used and that was on purpose.  You see Democracies run over the rights of minorities and pure Democracies will eventually fail and our founding fathers understood this. 

The Liberals in order to buy votes keep offering more and more to people at other person's expense.  That cannot continue without a bad ending.  The haves will find an out if they can and even if they can't there are not enough of them to pay for the promises that are being made by our government.  The government is inefficient and does not make good use of capital.  Better to allow private companies to prosper and take away obstacles if you want to better everyone.  This administration is one example of spending vast sums of money with the result of worst conditions than when they started. 
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Jim
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rykat
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2011, 11:23:36 PM »

"Your party relishes in punishing the poor and the disadvantaged"
And the left thrives on lies and believes their own lies

The class warfare issue which has been re-born by this administration, because frankly it is all they have, will always catch on with the ignorant and misinformed. Unfortunately the present society appears to be about 51% ignorant and misinformed and that may spell trouble for the Republic.
God help us, Jim, if they win the day.
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ragman
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2011, 05:36:12 AM »

Here is an excellent video which talks about government.  Mike please watch this video and comment on its' contents.  It follows along the lines of my thinking so where I'm I wrong?

The beauty of this video is that it is only 10 minutes long but it can be understood by a 12 year old.  I would suspect that most Liberals could even understand the premises.   Wink

http://www.youtube.com/v/DioQooFIcgE?version=3 
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Jim
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rykat
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2011, 01:27:57 PM »

but alas, no liberal could understand that, there is no one to blame! Wink
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clover
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2011, 05:04:43 PM »

Mike, you see that is the flaw in your thought process.  The United States of America is not a Democracy, it is a Republic.  Nowhere in the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights is the word Democracy used and that was on purpose.  You see Democracies run over the rights of minorities and pure Democracies will eventually fail and our founding fathers understood this. 

By popular usage the word "democracy" has come to mean a form of government in which the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them for the use of that power.  Obviously this is a Republic governed by the rule of law.  It is also a democracy in that all elected officials are seated based on popular vote.  The people vote, and the majority of those voters determine who their representative will be.......including the President of the United States.  Amazingly that is how democracy works....in this case its a representative government, governed by the rule of law.

Are you suggesting that majority rule is un-American?  Even at the electoral level a majority of Congress elects a President.  Is that bad too?Huh  51% of American voters have determined the direction of this country since it's inception.  In your zeal to play your partisan card you condemn democrats for buying votes?  Quit smokin that shit and look at the facts.  Your right wing Congress was willing to punish millions of people to cater to Keystone...a business........who's buying votes or more appropriately who's raising cash from big business to further their agenda.
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clover
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2011, 05:05:47 PM »

but alas, no liberal could understand that, there is no one to blame! Wink

HuhHuh?  blame for what?
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ragman
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2011, 08:34:41 PM »

Mike,  you see this is the problem.  "blame for what?"  You feel everything is fine.  We are on an upward path.  This is about the furthest from the truth as you can get.  We are surely at a cross road and it may be the last chance.  It will be difficult to go back to our achievements of the past but it is still possible.  America has done many great things in the past and it could do it again.  Are the American people willing.....that is the question. 
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Jim
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rykat
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 08:10:21 AM »

My guess is Jim that they are not willing. One of the looming issues is the debt our present entitlement society appears unwilling to deal with this issue with spending reductions believes raising taxes will solve he problem - not even close - and seems to be willing to take us off the cliff with OTO. The economy can not withstand four more years of this nonsense regardless of the ever so slight present uptick. Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kuTG19Cu_Q

oh really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ziiZFcWChg&feature=related

more bullshit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&feature=related

so proud of my leader
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 08:17:52 AM by rykat » Logged

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clover
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 10:23:52 AM »

Oh OH!  This just in!

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/12/28/hispanic-voters-favor-obama-by-wide-margin-poll/

LOL!! 
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ragman
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 05:12:51 PM »

Ok, this may just prove my point.  Why would the Hispanic vote go to Obama?  Because he is giving away things to get votes.  Things that are detrimental to the USA overall.  All he needs is a few more years of giving away things and we are done.  The majority will be on the take and looking for the government to support them.  The minority will see their taxes and other expenses rise.  When the minority collapses from the weight of this burden, then the anarchy starts.  Then we can ask Obama to call out the troops and save us.  He could even serve and 3 or 4 terms to keep the peace even though conditions will not improve.  Sad

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Jim
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clover
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2011, 06:01:14 PM »

You are either incredibly stupid or incredibly naive.  I've never met anyone from the Hispanic community that didn't work their asses off....and most are small businessmen.  So, how do you explain the majority of Hispanics voting for George Bush twice?  Oh I forgot...that was then and now they're all lazy assholes looking for a handout Wink  Talking about handouts.....6 billion to subsidize ethanol from corn, 6 billion to subsidize oil, tax loopholes, bailouts and multitudes of other giveaways to the richest in America.  Now stop the hypocrisy and the repeated propaganda you hear from the only news station you'll watch and do a little reading.......you actually might be able to make a statement that can be verified as fact. Wink

   “This welfare for the well-off — costing billions of dollars a year — is being paid for with the taxes of the less fortunate, many who are working two jobs just to make ends meet, and IOUs to be paid off by future generations. We should never demonize those who are successful. Nor should we pamper them with unnecessary welfare to create an appearance everyone is benefiting from federal programs,”

“From tax write-offs for gambling losses, vacation homes and luxury yachts to subsidies for their ranches and estates, the government is subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich and famous. Multimillionaires are even receiving government checks for not working,”

“According to Mr. Coburn’s office, the Internal Revenue Service reported that 2,362 millionaires collected a total of $20,799,000 in unemployment benefits in 2009; 18 people with an adjusted gross income of $10,000,000 or more received an average of $12,333 in jobless benefits for a total of $222,000.”

"The latest census data that shows nearly half of all Americans falling into poverty or barely surviving a low-income classification is a direct result of Republican policies that favor the rich over the rest of America. The bleak report is a result of falling wages for those with jobs and rising unemployment from outsourcing and Republican job-killing policies over the past ten years. The poverty numbers would be far worse if not for safety nets like food stamps and tax credits that Republicans are trying to eliminate to make room for more tax cuts for the wealthy and their corporations. Of course, the vile folks at the Heritage Foundation insist that Americans living in poverty (under $22,000 for a family of four) do not have it so bad because some have microwave ovens."

Good luck selling your platform to the majority Grin
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 06:38:15 PM by clover » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2011, 10:05:20 PM »

Where did I call Hispanics lazy?  Where did I say they didn't work hard??  You are the one who is either incredibly stupid or incredibly naive.  The Liberals are buying their votes by not enforcing immigration laws; amnesty cities; in State tuition; and not completing the securing of our border in a meaningful way.  Although deportations are up Liberals offer more hope of amnesty in the future.

Illegal aliens are causing financial difficulties in all the States and the borders are a great security risk.  In addition his lawsuits against the States who are trying to get things under control are seen by them as pro Hispanic.   In addition to this Liberals would block any attempt to end the practice of "Anchor Babies".  
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Jim
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
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