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Author Topic: US Healthcare system  (Read 5085 times)
ragman
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« on: October 14, 2009, 12:51:58 PM »

I took the liberty to copy this post from God to USA Chat.  Now let's have at it.

Posted by God

    Re: Medical License
« Reply #39 on: Today at 11:39:48 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of all the health care systems in all the countries on all the continents around the world the US is by far the most $#@& up of them all.  I can't see how anything could be worse including providing a government option for those who wish to use it.

5 to 6 babies out of every thousand born in the US die!  in the Czech Republic the number is 2.  Do you think that is because of the climate?

I would say that the US system (if that is what you want to call it) is not just broken  it is invisible.

Certainly we can attribute many medical advancements to the US but other countries with government systems such as France are at the forefront of R&D in the medical field. 

There is no excuse for letting people die because they have no money.  Anyone who tries to justify it is not human!

That's pretty much all I have to say about that!

P.S. by the way I don't just blame insurance companies I also blame doctors and the legal system (malpractice) for the mess.
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Jim
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ragman
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 12:53:39 PM »

Another view:   
 http://smartgirlnation.com/2009/06/popular-ranking-unfairly-misrepresents-the-us-health-care-system/

Popular Ranking Unfairly Misrepresents the U.S. Health Care System

The media and political community have made a big deal out of the fact that the U.S. ranks 37 out of 191 countries on the World Health Organization’s Health Care Ranking System.  Is this tool a credible way to compare quality health care delivered in the U.S. vs the rest of the world?

Let’s be perfectly clear about this, the United States Health Care is second to none!  Ask the tens of thousands of patients who travel internationally to the US every year for their health care.  As an example of the quality of health care delivered in the US, Americans have a higher survival rate than any other country on earth for 13 of 16 of the most common cancers.  Perhaps that is why Belinda Stronach, former liberal member of the Canadian Parliament and Cabinet member (one of the health care systems touted as “superior” to the US) abandoned the Canadian Health Care system to undergo her cancer treatment in California.1

But to understand how WHO derives this misleading statistic, which has been ballyhooed widely by both the media and politicians alike, you need to understand how it is created.  WHO’s health care rankings are constructed from five factors each weighted according to a formula derived by WHO.  These are:

1. Health Level:    25 percent

2. Health Distribution:    25 percent    

3. Responsiveness:    12.5 percent

4. Responsiveness Distribution:  12.5 percent

5. Financial Fairness:    25 percent  

“Health level” is a measure of a countries “disability adjusted life expectancy”.  This factor makes sense, since it is a direct measure of the health of a country’s residents.  However, even “life expectancy” can be affected by many factors not related to health care per se, such as poverty, homicide rate, dietary habits, accident rate, tobacco use, etc.  In fact, if you remove the homicide rate and accidental death rate from MVA’s from this statistic, citizens of the US have a longer life expectancy than any other country on earth.2  

“Responsiveness” measures a variety of factors such as speed of service, choice of doctors, and amenities (e.g. quality of linens).  Some of these make sense to include (speed of service) but some have no direct relationship to health care (quality of linens).  These two factors at least make some sense in a ranking of health care, but each is problematic as well.

The other three factors are even worse.   “Financial fairness” measures the percentage of household income spent on health care.  It can be expected that the “percentage” of income spent on health care decreases with increasing income, just as is true for food purchases and housing.  Thus, this factor does not measure the quality or delivery of health care, but the value judgment that everyone should pay the same “percentage” of their income on health care even regardless of their income or use of the system.  This factor is biased to make countries that rely on free market incentives look inferior.    It rewards countries that spend the same percentage of household income on health care, and punishes those that spend either a higher or lower percentage, regardless of the impact on health.  In the extreme then, a country in which all health care is paid for by the government (with money derived from a progressive tax system), but delivers horrible health care, will score perfectly in this ranking, whereas a country where the amount paid for health care is based on use of the system, but delivers excellent health care will rank poorly.  To use this factor to justify more government involvement in health care, therefore, is using circular reasoning since this factor is designed to favor government intervention.  

“Health Distribution and Responsiveness Distribution” measure inequality in the other factors.  In other words, neither factor actually measures the quality of health care delivery, because “inequality of delivery” is independent of “quality of care”.  It is possible, for example, to have great inequality in a health care system where the majority of the population gets “excellent” health care, but a minority only gets “good” health care.  This system would rank more poorly on these measures than another country that had “equal”, but poor, health care throughout the system.

In summary, therefore, the WHO ranking system has minimal objectivity in its “ranking” of world health.  It more accurately can be described as a ranking system inherently biased to reward the uniformity of “government” delivered (i.e. “socialized”) health care, independent of the care actually delivered. In that regard the relatively low ranking of the US in the WHO system can be viewed as a “positive” testament to at least some residual “free market” influence  (also read “personal freedom”) in the American Health Care system.  The American health care consumer needs to understand what the WHO ranking does and does not say about American health.  Don’t be fooled by “big government” politicians and the liberal media who are attempting to use this statistic to push for socialized medicine in the United States.  It says essentially nothing about the delivery of health care or the quality of that delivery in the US.  It does say that, so far, the American health care consumer has at least some personal freedom to seek the best health care available, and is not yet relegated to the “one size fits all” philosophy of government sponsored health care systems.

1.Susan Delacourt, “Stronach travels to U.S. for cancer treatment.” The Star, September  14, 2007.
2.Sally C. Pipes, “The Top Ten Myths of American Health Care”. Pacific Research Institute, pp 132-133, 2008.
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Jim
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ragman
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 01:04:11 PM »

An opposing view on infant birth rates: 
Quote
While the United States reports every case of infant mortality (according to the WHO definition), it is often claimed that some other developed countries do not due to an 2006 article in U.S. News & World Report which erroneously claimed that: "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless.[5] And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates."[6] However, all of the countries named adopted the WHO definitions in the late 1980s or early 1990s,[7] which are used throughout the European union.[8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality#Comparing_infant_mortality_rates
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Jim
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walleye
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 01:15:54 PM »

Aaaahhhhh......the rest of the story.  I did feel the original numbers seemed a little skewed.
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GOD
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 01:29:37 PM »

That's It?  That's all you can bring to the table?
 Okay here is a little something that might help you:

In 2006 47 million Americans had no health care coverage (you think this is by choice) which includes 8.7 million children (that was there fault right)!  Or that 68 percent of bankruptcies in the U.S. come as a direct result of medical expenses among people who do have insurance.

This is the best system in the world?  This is what you are saying right?

Okay how about this did you know that out of every $100.00 USD you pay in health care costs $25.00 is profit, bonuses and paperwork.  That sound efficient.

Also you should know that Health care is the #1 cause of labor disputes in the United States.  I wonder if that is because they are so happy with it they can't find the time to stop rejoicing and get to work.

As I have said this is not something I have to read about as I am most likely the only person here that has been a part of both systems for a good period of time (Canada and the US and now Belize).

There are certainly some good parts of the US System as well as other systems around the world.  The problem is that the US has always been a leader and in terms of health care they are not even close.  Why would we settle on this issue?  Why would the US take anything but a leadership role with the one thing that ensures the life of each and everyone of its citizens.

We can find things to argue about but having the best health care system should not be one of them.  We should all want to be covered and we should not wish the inability to be covered on anyone.

That's all no big deal.  There is always some jerk who is going to be willing to say what you want to hear and a scholar who will say what I want to hear but it all boils down to doing what's best for everyone and by the way a majority of Americans want a change!
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Otteralum
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 01:40:42 PM »

I didn't hear anyone say our system was perfect -- far from it.  I believe reform is long overdue and there are inequities that are unconscionable.

That all said, throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a horrible idea.  I don't have the inclination right now to re-post all my thoughts on topic, but if someone wants to spar on a specific aspect of the healthcare debate, I'd welcome the challenge.
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GOD
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 01:42:26 PM »

In your Infant Mortality information it ends by stating that as of the early 1990's the baseline is the same for all the countries mentioned.  The figures I provided are from 2005 which makes them perfectly acceptable and accurate according to WHO.

It seems that when you are in the lead with something there is no need to make excuses but when you suck at something you need to look at every possible excuse to justify your mediocrity (US health care not the poster).

 
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deadserious
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 01:53:50 PM »

That all said, throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a horrible idea. 

I actually advocate a complete strip down of the current system to a purely free-market driven approach.  That could be considered throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but it's the only thing that can really solve the problem.

Actually, Obama's approach is far from throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  It works within the current broken insurance system that we have today.  And that is exactly why it won't succeed...
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 02:00:42 PM »

In 2006 47 million Americans had no health care coverage (you think this is by choice)

I dispute the number you state, however I will say this... In the 2000 to 2005 timeframe I was without insurance and it was by choice.  The only reason I have it now is that my wife only agreed to marry me if I ended up getting insurance. damn women.

Okay how about this did you know that out of every $100.00 USD you pay in health care costs $25.00 is profit, bonuses and paperwork.  That sound efficient.

And 4 cents of every dollar the government spends on education actually makes it to the student's education.  The rest is in red tape and unnecessary administration.  25% inefficiency in spending is a lot better than 96% inefficiency once the government gets their hands on the money.

Also you should know that Health care is the #1 cause of labor disputes in the United States.  I wonder if that is because they are so happy with it they can't find the time to stop rejoicing and get to work.

I completely dispute this "fact"...  but even if it were true, it proves nothing.


We can find things to argue about but having the best health care system should not be one of them.  We should all want to be covered and we should not wish the inability to be covered on anyone.

That is the difference between you and me I guess.  I don't want everyone to be covered by insurance.  Instead I want everyone to have treatment when needed and not have that treatment bankrupt the individual.  Insurance, public or private is not the way to accomplish that goal.
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ragman
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 02:07:47 PM »

I personally like my health care but let me tell a little story.  We have four couples who hang together and about 10 weeks ago one of the guys had a stroke.  He was one of the last to go from the "Polaroid" bankruptcy.  He has no savings to speak of and he owns a home.  He was waiting to go on Medicare but had another year to go.  The bigie, no healthcare insurance.

Well he wasn't turned away at the emergency room and they saved his life.  After he was stable (a week later) they operated to remove an 80% blockage in his carotid artery.  He was in Intensive Care for about 14 days total as I remember.  He went home and a week later an infection set in.  Again he was readmitted to the hospital, no questions asked and they operated on him again.  He stayed in intensive care for quite some time and was then sent home and a nurse was sent to his house everyday to help him along with antibiotics.  After that he was on medication (antibiotics in pill form).

I ask him how he was going to pay for all this.  He told me he wasn't and told them up front that he didn't have insurance or any funds to speak of.  Maybe eventually they will put a lien on his home but they haven't yet because he just took out a mortgage on his home to buy a new car.  


The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think many people die from being turned down on health matters in the USA but maybe I'm wrong.  There are many ways that our system could be made better but it isn't with Obamacare.
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Jim
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deadserious
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 02:16:00 PM »

There are many ways that our system could be made better but it isn't with Obamacare.

True Dat.
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GOD
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 02:27:15 PM »

In the past 8 years under GWB and before him under BC there has been no changes at all.  Someone steps up to the plate and says tell me what you got give me some ideas and all we get is a bunch of ignorant people standing up and saying go away at town hall meetings.

Get a plan together and try it and if it fails get back on your feet and try again.  Doing nothing is what has been done.  The problem is in your statement "Obama care".  This is the divide that will always take us back to square one.  Call it change and don't agree with it but let it happen as a majority of Americans want.  And when and if it fails then stand up and provide a solution not just another Fancy name.

I don't know what the answer is but if I had voted for someone that is not willing to make change I would be calling him and telling him he better reconsider.
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2Aggies
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 02:55:21 PM »

God - I hear you spewing out numbers and claims (all with little or no sources) but I do not think you are as blind as you appear in print. You are picking numbers (or making them up) to substantiate your claims. I can give you a miriad of statistics and ratios that will vary by as much as 25% depending on the source and circumstances.
How many of the 4 - 5 infant deaths you cite are attributed to the crack addicted mother? Does that mean our health care is poor or some whore killed her baby and skewed the stats?
Many countries do not report or even have all of the statistics due to differences in culture. Some countries use a different criteria to compile stats to make them look better. Some of the stats are skewed because they are funded by the health care industry. What better way to increase sales than to make the wealthiest country in the world appear to be neglicting care.
If you find a better country for health care - move there, but I'll be damned if I am  going to sit back and allow the government to take my money to care for someone who is to damn lazy to work or who sits on their ass all day and takes drugs and gets drunk. Yes I believe these people are victims. Victims of their own carelessness.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 02:57:31 PM by 2Aggies » Logged

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Otteralum
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 04:04:34 PM »

ds -- great points.  The "baby" I was referring to was the little incentive we have left for innovation, discovery, and patient/doctor-led decision-making.

I advocate your approach wholeheartedly.

And "god," I can't excuse 8-years of doing nothing on the topic -- I don't think anyone here would.
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GOD
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 06:13:09 PM »

I guess it's settled then.

Lets hold hands......
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